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  • Cody73 wrote: View Post
    Guys, Bruno's essentially a rookie CIS guy right now.


    Give him the year, then see how far along he is.... and reevaluate what his potential is.
    YES.

    Then we all agree. So then can we stop talking about this guy like he is even remotely relevant at this point. Lets stop talking about what position he is going to play in, or the scenario's etc.

    Thats all. I dont think anybody, aside from the ninjitsu guy that wants to trade him, is saying he can't get better.....its just, now, at this point....he is completely useless to any team trying to win.

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    • Honestly though, I feel like Bruno's really got the tools to be our PG of the future
      "Stop eating your sushi."
      "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
      "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
      - Jack Armstrong

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      • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
        Honestly though, I feel like Bruno's really got the tools to be our PG of the future
        wanna feel how hard I can punch?
        For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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        • I'm not entirely sure how people want to trade Bruno one year into his four-year rookie contract.

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          • MACK11 wrote: View Post
            If we're going to maximize value from ever player. Then why keep JV around? He's not gonna be good enough next season to command 16mill a year.

            How about Cojo? He's also not worth his 7.5Mill this season

            How about Tross?

            A team succeeding has nothing to do with who they're 15th man is.
            There are multiple threads explaining why the CoJo and JV deals are potentially bargains. No one is arguing that Bruno is worth even half of his contract.

            I've consistently wanted them to trade Ross for a while. It became particularly clear that Ross was overvalued during the period when DD was out for a prolonged period and he did nothing.

            thead wrote: View Post
            I disagree with your point...to a large degree. If you draft the personification of wingspan and he blows up after you trade him, you never live it down. If he really starts to take a downward trend you just drop him or trade him for a second round pick. He has almost no value currently
            If GMs are worried about what a player might become, when their job is predicated on present success, they shouldn't have their jobs. Who cares about wingspan without intangibles?

            Looking at the future has some value, but as I said before, it's all tied to the available window for success. If a team is tied to a piquing player who is likely to start falling apart after 3 seasons, who cares that another player may pique in 5 years? Why would a GM want to pay big money to said player while rebuilding?

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            • Superjudge wrote: View Post
              YES.

              Then we all agree. So then can we stop talking about this guy like he is even remotely relevant at this point. Lets stop talking about what position he is going to play in, or the scenario's etc.

              Thats all. I dont think anybody, aside from the ninjitsu guy that wants to trade him, is saying he can't get better.....its just, now, at this point....he is completely useless to any team trying to win.
              He isn't being asked to help a team win. He's being asked to work hard and train and learn the game. He's worth the effort because Masai and the scouting staff have identified tangibles and intangibles that they think can be shaped into a good/great player. Considering the mix of veterans and prospects on this team I don't understand why people are freaking out over Bruno.

              He's showed a nice shooting stroke, some good instincts on D, by all accounts a very good work ethic and a willingness to learn. What more do you want from the kid?
              Sunny ways my friends, sunny ways
              Because its 2015

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              • Superjudge wrote: View Post
                YES.

                Then we all agree. So then can we stop talking about this guy like he is even remotely relevant at this point. Lets stop talking about what position he is going to play in, or the scenario's etc.

                Thats all. I dont think anybody, aside from the ninjitsu guy that wants to trade him, is saying he can't get better.....its just, now, at this point....he is completely useless to any team trying to win.
                You're getting yourself worked up for nothing, bro. People are projecting what Bruno "could become", 3-4 years down the road. It's all an "if, if, if..." type of discussion that's going on. Of course, Bruno needs to demonstrate even remedial level BBIQ and I've got big concerns with that, because people really underestimate the importance of feel-for-the-game / craftiness / savvy / old-man game, etc... NBA is littered with highly touted draft picks, with physical gifts who just never got the feel of playing 5-on-5. BBIQ is why a less athletically gifted guy like Manu is going to the HoF.

                That said, like OldSkool pointed out, we're talking about the freakin' 20th pick in a weak draft, who was by MU's admission picked earlier than they wanted. The plan was to grab Ennis with #20 and get Bruno with the 37th pick, but those weenies Suns f*d that up. I've got no problem taking a flyer on those physical gifts combined with what the coaching staff says is a stellar work ethic. Caveat is, I'd also have concerns about him getting his BBIQ from the current Raps coaching staff. I mean, WTF positive could Bruno have learned last season watching Lou take contested 28-ft step backs and by watching the ISO offense, in general?

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                • Superjudge wrote: View Post
                  YES.

                  Then we all agree. So then can we stop talking about this guy like he is even remotely relevant at this point. Lets stop talking about what position he is going to play in, or the scenario's etc.

                  Thats all. I dont think anybody, aside from the ninjitsu guy that wants to trade him, is saying he can't get better.....its just, now, at this point....he is completely useless to any team trying to win.
                  To be clear, I never said that Bruno can't improve(it's possible). My argument is that the Raptors are financing his potential improvement at a loss, and by looking at past scenarios, the most likely outcome is that the fruits of his improvement (if any) will benefit another team on a later contract.

                  Paying for improvement that is so far away is a financial misstep with no guarantees that the Raptors can benefit from it. The potential of what he can be is worth far more than the best case scenario of what he can actually become. Therefore, the best course of action, to get the most value, is to trade him.

                  Yes, my opinion is cold, but I have zero invested in Bruno emotionally. I wish him all the best, but I wish most decent people on Earth that. Minus a single game he played for Sky/Pinheiros, against an over-matched team, he's done nothing of relevance as a pro. This isn't T Ross where he's at least shown something multiple times. Bruno's done nothing outside what he's allegedly done at the gym behind closed doors.

                  My opinion that they should trade him now shouldn't stun anyone, quite frankly.

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                  • blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                    To be clear, I never said that Bruno can't improve(it's possible). My argument is that the Raptors are financing his potential improvement at a loss, and by looking at past scenarios, the most likely outcome is that the fruits of his improvement (if any) will benefit another team on a later contract.

                    Paying for improvement that is so far away is a financial misstep with no guarantees that the Raptors can benefit from it. The potential of what he can be is worth far more than the best case scenario of what he can actually become. Therefore, the best course of action, to get the most value, is to trade him.

                    Yes, my opinion is cold, but I have zero invested in Bruno emotionally. I wish him all the best, but I wish most decent people on Earth that. Minus a single game he played for Sky/Pinheiros, against an over-matched team, he's done nothing of relevance as a pro. This isn't T Ross where he's at least shown something multiple times. Bruno's done nothing outside what he's allegedly done at the gym behind closed doors.

                    My opinion that they should trade him now shouldn't stun anyone, quite frankly.

                    How many kids go in to NCAA relatively unheard of only to blow up?

                    How many kids go in to NCAA full of hype only to never materialize?


                    The physical tools and basic skills are ridiculous with this kid. Why not develop him and see what happens? He does not have any trade value at the moment for the very reasons you're down on him.


                    The reality is the Raptors are going to have his rights, if they choose, for another 4 years minimum. A lot can happen in four years and it is that type of long term, in house developmental approach that has kept teams like San Antonio relevant and a contender over the years as the core has remained the same but the supporting/role players have changed. You see OKC attempting to do it but they have missed on some draft picks, while others had to get paid and left. Houston is taking this approach developing players like Jones, Montiejunas, and Beverly in the DLeague. A big part of Indiana's success prior to PG13 injury was Stephenson and he spent his first 2 years on the bench.


                    Bruno is rawer and has less basketball experience than those other players but he also has much better physical tools and potential.


                    You rationale sounds like someone who watched a penny stock double and want to cash out immediately rather than raise your stop to break even to see if it becomes a 10 bagger or more.

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                    • blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                      To be clear, I never said that Bruno can't improve(it's possible). My argument is that the Raptors are financing his potential improvement at a loss, and by looking at past scenarios, the most likely outcome is that the fruits of his improvement (if any) will benefit another team on a later contract.

                      Paying for improvement that is so far away is a financial misstep with no guarantees that the Raptors can benefit from it. The potential of what he can be is worth far more than the best case scenario of what he can actually become. Therefore, the best course of action, to get the most value, is to trade him.

                      Yes, my opinion is cold, but I have zero invested in Bruno emotionally. I wish him all the best, but I wish most decent people on Earth that. Minus a single game he played for Sky/Pinheiros, against an over-matched team, he's done nothing of relevance as a pro. This isn't T Ross where he's at least shown something multiple times. Bruno's done nothing outside what he's allegedly done at the gym behind closed doors.

                      My opinion that they should trade him now shouldn't stun anyone, quite frankly.
                      This is a fantastic debate - one of the reasons why I come on this forum. It reminds me of the exact same type of debates we have in our company about how much money to pump into long term R&D projects and what is the expected timeline for return on investment. And that's exactly how we should look at Bruno - as an long term R&D project. Problem is that the Raps didn't have a lab (i.e. the D-League affiliate) to run the experiments, develop the product and at least get to proof-of-concept before putting the product into field trials.

                      If the draft reports are correct, Bruno was supposed to be a second round 37th pick, so if you want to fault MU for anything, it's picking Bruno as a first rounder which hand-cuffed the Raps ability to stash him like they did with Daniels (btw-that's a pretty selfish rule negotiated by the player's association).

                      I don't really agree with the 'financial mis-step' argument, since Bruno only costs us $1.5M in cap space and the D-League team wasn't purchased just for him. If he doesn't show progress in the D-League, then we can either trade him or simply not extend him, so this season's $1.5M would be the last money we'd spend on him. It's a paltry amount in the big picture for an NBA franchise that has a valuation approaching $1B or more. The incremental cost of having Bruno in the D-League along with other players is negligible.

                      And to continue on the R&D analogy - in my own personal experience, we were working on an R&D project for about 2 years with no tangible results. We made a decision to wrap things and cut our losses, but the project finally yielded a breakthrough which has become the foundation for the company today - 180 degree change in the product line. Now this is definitely not the norm, but it did happen, so I'm biased towards let's see where Bruno is after a year in the lab (i.e. serious 5-on-5 time, on an actual basketball court) and re-evaluate if there's any 'there', there.
                      Last edited by golden; Wed Sep 23, 2015, 12:35 PM.

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                      • ^That's the big thing, the 905. Otherwise, I might be a little more pessimistic myself. But we're weeks away from actually seeing this kid play, seeing how far he's come after spending the offseason working out in Toronto. No, he won't be making an impact this season for the Raptors, but he's all but guaranteed to make an impact for the 905 (even if it's ugly to start), and that's a MASSIVE step in the right direction that will give us a very good idea of just how long (or slow) his strides might be.

                        Also, if he plays well down there and develops some actual intrigue amongst scouts, then you can start thinking about packaging him in trade for a player that will make an impact this year - ie Horford.
                        Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Wed Sep 23, 2015, 05:35 PM.

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                        • First, Bruno has little to no value in a trade right now. So I don't understand the thought that he would fetch something that outweighs his potential usefulness down the line. Hey, if you are trading him as part of a big package for a superstar, go for it. But as an asset by himself? What exactly are you going to get that will change this team's fortunes?

                          Also, his "potential" and "what he can actually become" are the same thing. That's what potential is. The question is how likely he is to reach that benchmark. And I can say with confidence that none of us has seen enough of him to be sure what that likelihood is, or even to have a real educated guess. After this season in the D-League we will have a much better idea. Even then I'd prefer not to move him (trading guys away on rookie scale deals is generally a bad move unless you can get real value back), but at least we'd have some confidence about his chances.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • Starting to wonder about these guys ...


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                            • ...Looking at Brunos arms just makes me laugh ... I can't help it ... He's like Mr. Fantastic ... New Nickname?

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                              • lol, are those their friends or random guys?

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