Everything Pascal Siakam

[TomAmnot]

I bet he'll get traded to Atl, but it'll be a 3 team trade with Dallas.

*Or simply to Atlanta but it'll be Bogdan instead of De'Andre.

[chris]

Scottie and Pascal can't both be great at the same time because they need to same space on the court and high usage to do so. Two PF who are ball dominant and can't shoot. That's the issue we continue to face moving forward if we keep Pascal. You bet your ass Pascal isn't going to take a back seat to Scottie while chasing a supermax.

yeah that's what i kept coming back to all of last year - their games don't complement each other well and i don't think either player can be at their best sharing the floor, so choose one. i prefer the one who just turned 22 days ago with the higher ceiling and who will remain far cheaper for the forseeable future, much as i love and respect pascal

[planetmars]

The Raps deal looks much better than the blazers though, even if the raps received no picks. The better prospect and 2 useful players, one with all-star potential. I don't know how many picks portland would have to get to balance this deal.

Yeah might look too good for Toronto.

But I am not giving Pascal away. And yet Dame wants out badly so that's a notable difference there.

It also depends on what the Blazers are hoping for in a Dame package. They don't want Herro because they have enough shooting guards. So I was thinking they would prefer Hunter. They can likely have a choice of prospect if they don't like Jovic they could take Jaquez. Or even both. And yeah.. all the picks and swaps that Miami can muster. I think they can offer 2 picks and 4 swaps. So one of the picks going to Toronto via Atlanta can go there too.

If it takes moving Griffin to Portland and us taking a Heat prospect instead then I might do it still, but I won't give a pick to Portland via Atlanta then.

[planetmars]

yeah that's what i kept coming back to all of last year - their games don't complement each other well and i don't think either player can be at their best sharing the floor, so choose one. i prefer the one who just turned 22 days ago with the higher ceiling and who will remain far cheaper for the forseeable future, much as i love and respect pascal

I have to see what it looks like for another season. Not exactly the same but AD and Lebron were able to figure it out. Both suck as 3pt shooters. Lebron likes to attack from the perimeter. AD likes to face up and gets shots up in the mid range or at the rim. But neither gets in each others way too much.

And that Laker team that won in the bubble had only 2 shooters. KCP and Danny. Avery Bradley had a good 3pt shooting season but didn't join them in the bubble. They had defenders everywhere though (well outside Lebron because he's old).

And yeah it was the bubble.. but they had a great season going into the bubble too. Also Lebron is a GOAT type of player and AD is easily a top 50 player of all time (when healthy). But that team/style was able to win in the 3pt era. And it feels like what Masai is sort of trying to emulate.

[MixxAOR]

the only hope I have is that they improve defensively. To something like top 5. Once they got Poeltl they started playing more traditional. So hopefully if Dennis plays to his potential as point of attack defender and Poeltl looming in the back with long defenders on a wing who can always stunt or dig on drives we can manufacture some points off the defense. Barnes in open court and Siakam running ahead. (Magic to Worthy if you may)

[Primer]

I have to see what it looks like for another season. Not exactly the same but AD and Lebron were able to figure it out. Both suck as 3pt shooters. Lebron likes to attack from the perimeter. AD likes to face up and gets shots up in the mid range or at the rim. But neither gets in each others way too much.

And that Laker team that won in the bubble had only 2 shooters. KCP and Danny. Avery Bradley had a good 3pt shooting season but didn't join them in the bubble. They had defenders everywhere though (well outside Lebron because he's old).

And yeah it was the bubble.. but they had a great season going into the bubble too. Also Lebron is a GOAT type of player and AD is easily a top 50 player of all time (when healthy). But that team/style was able to win in the 3pt era. And it feels like what Masai is sort of trying to emulate.

No exactly the same is quite the understatement there. I don't think anyone has ever said Lebron and AD have similar games, or play the same position even.

[planetmars]

No exactly the same is quite the understatement there. I don't think anyone has ever said Lebron and AD have similar games, or play the same position even.

Sure because Davis isn't a point forward. But Pascal doesn't have to be either. He wasn't when Kawhi was here. He wasn't when Kawhi left and his team was on pace for 60 wins. He became that guy more so when Kyle left and the keys were given to him (and Fred).

But why can't Scottie be a baby Lebron? Not a great shooter but can make it happen. But excellent facilitator. And has the size to bully his way to the rim. Davis plays in the paint and out in the corners. He's never in the way of Lebron. Neither are great shooters. Davis shot .330 the year they won. But he's a career 30% shooter. Pascal can play a face up game. He can be okay from the corners. He can run. He can get to the rim as a roller in a pick and roll.

And they were rocking a non-shooting big man. Actually two of them. And point guards like Rondo and Caruso who can't shoot at all either. Yet they found a way to win.

[SkywalkerAC]

you and i have different definitions of 'prime' i think. i've never seen a player enter what i would define as their prime in their age 22 season.

Plenty of players, especially these days, are playing elite level basketball by the season in which they turn 22. If Vince could explode onto the scene at age 22, why can't Scottie who has already won rookie of the year, make a major leap into what, yes, I would call his prime, something that can and does last over decade for many true greats - it isn't the same thing as your peak.

[chris]

Sure because Davis isn't a point forward. But Pascal doesn't have to be either. He wasn't when Kawhi was here. He wasn't when Kawhi left and his team was on pace for 60 wins. He became that guy more so when Kyle left and the keys were given to him (and Fred).

But why can't Scottie be a baby Lebron? Not a great shooter but can make it happen. But excellent facilitator. And has the size to bully his way to the rim. Davis plays in the paint and out in the corners. He's never in the way of Lebron. Neither are great shooters. Davis shot .330 the year they won. But he's a career 30% shooter. Pascal can play a face up game. He can be okay from the corners. He can run. He can get to the rim as a roller in a pick and roll.

And they were rocking a non-shooting big man. Actually two of them. And point guards like Rondo and Caruso who can't shoot at all either. Yet they found a way to win.

i think scottie becoming a baby-lebron is what everyone here hopes for him (i think magic is more apt as lebron has a scoring instinct i don't expect scottie to ever have, but big primary playmaker is the role).

i'd just rather not spend a third consecutive season not prioritizing scottie's development to try to make something work which we have little indication can work through two seasons.

and i'm not sure it's fair to expect pascal to completely reimagine his game in a contract year

[chris]

Plenty of players, especially these days, are playing elite level basketball by the season in which they turn 22. If Vince could explode onto the scene at age 22, why can't Scottie who has already won rookie of the year, make a major leap into what, yes, I would call his prime, something that can and does last over decade for many true greats - it isn't the same thing as your peak.

yeah we just define prime different, which is fine. to me a player's prime when is when his athletic ability, skills, and IQ most closely align, whereas you're defining it as everything after a guy makes his big leap. i think most greats tend to still get much better after that leap as they continue to develop their skills and understanding of the game.

semantics.

i'm still not expecting scottie to make that monster leap given that we've developmentally delayed him a bit by having him play without the ball so much early in his career, and especially not expecting iit if pascal is still on the team

[planetmars]

i think scottie becoming a baby-lebron is what everyone here hopes for him (i think magic is more apt as lebron has a scoring instinct i don't expect scottie to ever have, but big primary playmaker is the role).

i'd just rather not spend a third consecutive season not prioritizing scottie's development to try to make something work which we have little indication can work through two seasons.

and i'm not sure it's fair to expect pascal to completely reimagine his game in a contract year

What indications did you get in Scottie's rookie year that they can't play together? I thought he and Pascal worked pretty well together. Scottie was ROY and Pascal got All-NBA. The team won 48 games.. and that was through many injuries. And they played a lot of games with no fans in the building that season.

I think the problem was that Pascal had to do a lot more than we realized because Scottie regressed last season. I was originally thinking it was because the two don't fit. But now I just think Scottie regressed and needs to play a lot better. Scottie's of course young and deserves some rope, but I'm not giving him the keys until he can at least show more than he did last year. Get back to the 2021 level of play first before we potentially make a move that we can't recover from. Especially since there are no signs at all that Masai wants to tank and do a full rebuild. I mean if he wanted to do that, then sure give Scottie everything and just go young. Be the Pistons for the next 3-4 years and hope for more lottery luck.

[SkywalkerAC]

If things had broken just a little differently last season we could have assured ourselves a playoff spot, and that’s leaning pretty heavily and developing a 20 year old phenom still learning the game and working on his fundamentals. Now it’s a single year later and things didn’t break just right, but now that 21 year old phenom that learned from all those struggles is back and for some reason a lot here are predicting a small, linear progression from a guy that is suddenly being handed the keys to the kingdom?

Smart money is on Scottie being much improved. And Pascal is putting in the work for a contract season (potentially). No reason why they couldn’t work well together once again, and then some.

[chris]

What indications did you get in Scottie's rookie year that they can't play together? I thought he and Pascal worked pretty well together. Scottie was ROY and Pascal got All-NBA. The team won 48 games.. and that was through many injuries. And they played a lot of games with no fans in the building that season.

I think the problem was that Pascal had to do a lot more than we realized because Scottie regressed last season. I was originally thinking it was because the two don't fit. But now I just think Scottie regressed and needs to play a lot better. Scottie's of course young and deserves some rope, but I'm not giving him the keys until he can at least show more than he did last year. Get back to the 2021 level of play first before we potentially make a move that we can't recover from. Especially since there are no signs at all that Masai wants to tank and do a full rebuild. I mean if he wanted to do that, then sure give Scottie everything and just go young. Be the Pistons for the next 3-4 years and hope for more lottery luck.

if you think scottie's potential is maxed offensively as a low usage player whose opportunities come primarily in transition or off offensive rebounds, then sure they can work great together. i have higher hopes for him though.

i'm not sure how much of last year was regression for him versus just not being put in position to succeed often enough. he spent so much time just standing around the perimeter off the ball which is the worst place for him to be, which is something i pointed out in many game threads throughout the season (after the games, since i live on the west coast and never watch them live). he's a guy who had to find ways to impact games while frequently not being used to his strengths, which samson folk highlighted multiple times last year in post-game pods. and then yeah it often didn't look great when he got his opportunities, but sometimes that happens when you're not very involved (or when the spacing sucks), and i'd just like to see how he develops with more reps and better spacing. i also think a series of nagging injuries and the locker-room were factors.

[Primer]

if you think scottie's potential is maxed offensively as a low usage player whose opportunities come primarily in transition or off offensive rebounds, then sure they can work great together. i have higher hopes for him though.

i'm not sure how much of last year was regression for him versus just not being put in position to succeed often enough. he spent so much time just standing around the perimeter off the ball which is the worst place for him to be, which is something i pointed out in many game threads throughout the season (after the games, since i live on the west coast and never watch them live). he's a guy who had to find ways to impact the game while frequently not being used to his strengths, which samson folk highlighted multiple times last year in post-game pods. and then yeah it often didn't look great when he got his opportunities, but sometimes that happens when you're not very involved (or when the spacing sucks), and i'd just like to see how he develops with more reps and better spacing. i also think a series of nagging injuries and the locker-room were factors.

This right here. Scottie didn't even regress he just stayed pretty much the same as his rookie season because we kept him in the same role he won't be able to grow or excel at.

If we play this whole season with Pascal again expect similar results.

[LJ2]

I mean, Scottie is that avenue if he has that kind of juice. Great players can/should enter their prime their 3rd season. Is Scottie a truly great player I guess is the question.

If he is, and Pascal clearly is, then you've got two all-nba calibre guys surrounded by an already pretty deep team. People keep talking about Scottie's "timeline" like it can't be right now, but it's due to recency bias (of last season kinda sucking) more than anything.

Scottie might not be ready to shoot, and that could be a problem especially if Pascal isn't as well, but he's definitely ready to compete. And Pascal, as the best wingman of the bunch, probably makes us the most competitive.

Heat, Bucks, Celtics...are we really that scared of them this season?

You're kind of talking about the 3rd year like it's some sort of magical switch. He'll be better but unless you've seen something last season which makes you think he's going to dominate in some way I think it's fair to say he's not on Pascal's timeline. Like it's not like he was a great shooter, but just didn't get enough shots or was a great passer but didn't have enough opportunities to create for others. And you can't just let him slide on not being able to shoot. Damn near every dominant player except Giannis can shoot.

I don't think we're close enough to the Bucks, Celtics or playoff version of the Heat to talk about being scared or not scared. Teams are going to pack the paint and dare this team to shoot all bloody season long. I'm bracing myself for some really ugly basketball.